[XCSSA] ROEI: Ethanol vs. ADM vs. Return on Energy Investment vs. PHILL

[xcssa@xcssa.org]

> My take:
>
> Bio-diesel (or any diesel for that matter):
> Some of the nastiest, half-burning, particulate pollution creation fuel/engine
> combinations out there today!

I would agree with petroleum diesel, but not bio-diesel. There is a HUGE
decrease in particulates with bio-diesel since it is more pure to a good degree.

>> other emissions are significantly better, such as the sulfur content, and
>> it has more energy than petroleum diesel.
>
> Got any links on this?  The nature of diesel engines makes them dirty burners.
> I would need to see more info on that. (esp particulate matter and unburned
> hydrocarbons)

http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/faqs/
http://www.independent.com.mt/news.asp?newsitemid=47290

"According to a comparative life-cycle study by the US Department of Energy's
National Renewable Energy Laboratory, biodiesel requires only 0.31 units of
fossil energy to make 1 unit of fuel.

"By contrast, it takes 1.2 units of fossil resources to produce 1 unit of
petroleum diesel," the study says." -
http://www.martinandalex.com/blog/archives/2004/10/the_definitive.html

This computer does not have Adobe Reader so I cannot verify if I can give you
the correct link for the DOE report on bio-diesel. There were quite a few links
to the report through Google, though, using "1998 biodiesel life cycle study".
>
> So what you're re-using french fry and chicken grease.  Good for you.. now we
> all get to breathe in the junk.. and it also contributes to "global dimming"
> (as it's now called).  I'm pretty much against all diesel.  Or more
> precisely, I should add, that while I think that bio-diesel is an interesting
> diversion... I believe that it is wrong as a long term direction.

I personally disagree with that conclusion, though. Since diesel engines have
greater torque than gasoline engines, they are better suited for large rigs and
locomotives, and diesel doesn't explode under "normal" circumstances. Yeah,
yeah, I'm sure you could make it explode under the right situation, but you
catch my drift. From what I read, diesel engines are a bit more effecient than
gasoline engines, hence a HUGE increase in fuel mileage over gasoline engines.
Diesel engines are around to stay, and they are going to be sold more and more
in the States since it usually is a little cheaper per gallon than unleaded
fuel.

Also, commercial bio-diesel has much less to do with chicken grease and used
french-fry oil and more to do with using different plants (even waste product as
well). It is possible to fit a diesel engine to run grease and oil (the original
diesel engine was run off of peanut oil), but bio-diesel is usable in a "normal"
diesel engine.

> Corn/Grass/"Grow-it" Based Ethenol:
> Or any agricultural based hydro-carbon source = bad ju ju.  If we should ever
> become dependant upon such "fuel crops".. all it would take would be one big
> drought, fungus infestations (natural or terrorist launched) creating one bad
> harvest.. and our entire economy could take a big dive.  Why not just turn
> the clock back 200 years and go back to horse & buggy?!

Crop-based fuels are just one facet of a multi-pronged approach to weaning the
world off of petroleum. Think of it this way - petroleum fuels right now use up
carbon without returning anything to the earth. Crop-based fuels are nearly zero
in carbon use since most of the byproducts can go right back into the earth for
the next batch. Granted, droughts and infestations would have an impact, no
doubt, but I personally believe this would be less vulnerable than our current
situation. Someone in the Middle East sneezes, and our gas prices jump 30 cents
or more.

> Real time and near-real time sun based sources are the way to go...  Solar,
> Wind, Hydro and Wave should be our long term goals.  No?

For electricity, yes. Don't think I'll be attaching a windmill to the top of my
car or solar panels on the roof anytime soon since I wouldn't get very far. I
want my air conditioning and my loud radio, and those alternative sources
wouldn't cut it. :)